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| Should Alphatia be brought back? |
| Yes |
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37% |
[ 3 ] |
| No, it should stay in the Hollow World |
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12% |
[ 1 ] |
| It should never have been destroyed in the first place |
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50% |
[ 4 ] |
| Who cares? I prefer Glantri |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
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| Total Votes : 8 |
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| Author |
Message |
Cab
Rules over Alphatia!
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 125
Location: Cambridge
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 Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 8:10 am Post subject: |
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| alhoon wrote: | The Pacifist mentallity doesn't break out so quickly  |
It doesn't. And it takes Alphatia years to get out of that in WotI; it takes the destruction of the spiritual home of the philisophy of Mylertendal, the loss of much of their flying navy, the total wipe out of their capital city (if Aasla is the spiritual home of Alphatian philosophy and art, then Suundsvaal, the City Built by Magic, is the home of Alphatian mage craft) and the loss of their much loved empress, Eriadna. Thats a heck of a lot of provocation.
| Quote: | | A pacifistic nation doesn't go all out war for an atrocity, commiting dozens of atrocities in the way. Pacifists don't throw delayed blast fireballs over a capital after all. Not to mention that there was a risk of Thyatis using pegasi, flying fighters and mages and capturing a few such ships. |
Indeed. It takes a long time to turn a nation of pacifists into a nation of warmongers, but it'll happen. Talking to old timers about bombings in British cities has taught me that.
| Quote: | | Also those wands you mention... they're not easy to make even for a mage continent like Alphatia. While they may had 20 such ships, they wouldn't risk them all IMO. |
This goes way back in my campaign. The Alphatian flying navy is divided into four fleets. The red fleet is devoted to persuing wars in foreign lands, expansionism and counterattacks. The white fleet is defensive; it moves troops, it repels attacks and invasions, it patrols the skies and seas against piracy. The yellow fleet provides logistical support to the rest of the Alphatian military and empire (perhaps the most important role of all!) and the black fleet explores, and deals with matters outside of the skyshield, extra planar matters, etc.
In the year 1933AY, the black fleet commissioned 10 'orca' class vessels; high altitude observation vessels. That capacity was upgraded in 1998, with the development of ten larger 'beluga' class. The names should tell you what they look like; they were designed to withstand punching through the skyshield by means of reverse gravity, the beluga class being kitted out specifically to counter the threat from the Heldannic Knights beyond the skyshield. It was those vessels adapted for bombing; effectivelty, they out-climbed the Thyatian mounted units, and were only really threatened by the Heldannic Knights. Bombing Thyatis, Kerrendas and Tel Akbir was a surprise move, meant to demoralise Thyatians.
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Most of the mages that constitute the Alphatian army are 1-3rd level BTW. And Alphatia is vast, it can't have sent all its mages to Thyatis.
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Again, true. Its also true of standard Alphatian (by the book) boltmen, they can't all possibly cast those spells, but they can use the wands they're given.
| Quote: | | Also Alphatia wasn't that pacifistic. After all they had war after war with Thyatis. |
The main (again, by the book) Alphatian immortals and philosophy really are rather pacifistic. Mylertendal, Koryis, Alphatia, Razud and Palartarken all put forward a non-expansionist philosophy. And those mages in Alphatia not into pacifism are either (a) more into their own projects, or (b) stoned out of their skulls on zzonga. There is a big Alphatian military of course, but as a proportion of their population or total spending it isn't as great as that of Thyatis. Alphatia after, say, the coronation of Eriadna isn't expansionist, its barely even interested in outer colonies like Norwold.
| Quote: | IMO the Emperess didn't want war in order for her people to prosper. The previous generations of Alphatia weren't that nice.
BTW The "New Aphatia"'s emperor, Zandor seems a complete fool to me. He alienates everyone, even his own sister and his Empire is more a joke than reality |
A lot of truth in that too. Eriadna didn't want war, but she'd want Alphatian culture to die due to Glantrian magic draining less. Her tried and failed to reclaiom Thyatis back into the Empire, and it cost him his throne. And Zandor... Well, he's from the shallow end of the Vertilloch gene pool. He's mad as a fish. Many of his actions are based closely on the Roman emperor Caligula; if you want some inspiration for playing him, try watching the old television drama I Claudius.
| Quote: | | Also while I don't agree on the "Woops, Alphatia's down, let's join Thyatis" mentality, many people would rush to the Thyatian Empire and many fiefs would claim allegiance. After all, Thyatis is the surviving superpower. I don't think it would take a generation for Thyatis to reclaim the lost territories. Perhaps a year or so. |
A year is a very short time in peoples hearts and minds; its even further when it takes weeks or months to sort out an armada of vessels to go and assault an island. And its longer again when you've got kings like Haldebaran down in the Alatian islands; an intensely clever individual like him, with a dozen decent mages, could stall the landing of any fleet for months, even years. They could make any Thyatian advance very hard. Real history has shown that island nations can hold out against apparently unsurmountable opposition, and they can emerge prosperous.
| Quote: | Then it would proceed to take over the Isle of Dawn which would take more than 5 years since,let's face it, the place is big and Thyatis has many other problems to solve.
(Campaign wise, what's the fun to have Thyatis march through the Isle of Dawn like a hysteric lion in steroids?) |
I think that much of the Isle of Dawn would fall to Thyatis with little struggling; Helskir should logically fall to the Heldannic Knights, but other than a greater Thothia (stretching to just short of Furmenglaive in the South, Ekto in the North) there is neither a military problem nor a cultural hindrance.
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So IMO Thyatis would be like what it seems to be in the Almanac eventually, but it would take 6-7 years, not a single year, not 20 years. |
None of the historical precedents that I can think of support that, and none of the campaigns in the history of Mystara support that kind of expansion rate either. I suppose its possible, but the financial and human cost would be unsupportable.
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alhoon
Frequent Tentacle Issues
Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 96
Location: Chania, Greece.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:20 am Post subject: |
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What? ! ? Glantri destroyed the City built by Magic? That's next to impossible! Sundsvaal was that city? I had dreams about that city when I was a kid! It was inpsiring! Why would Glantri do that? What did the Gods did to prevent it?
My main reason for wanting Alphatia back is not to oppose Thyatis but rather to have that city back!
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alhoon
Frequent Tentacle Issues
Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 96
Location: Chania, Greece.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:45 am Post subject: |
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| Cab wrote: |
This goes way back in my campaign. The Alphatian flying navy is divided into four fleets. The red fleet is devoted to persuing wars in foreign lands, expansionism and counterattacks. The white fleet is defensive; it moves troops, it repels attacks and invasions, it patrols the skies and seas against piracy. The yellow fleet provides logistical support to the rest of the Alphatian military and empire (perhaps the most important role of all!) and the black fleet explores, and deals with matters outside of the skyshield, extra planar matters, etc.
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Hey, You are a bit preoccupied here I think. Alphatia's flying navy wasn't that powerful. While it is a power to be considered it is not the complete solution. After all, Alphatia's real force is its mages and it doesn't need too much army.
| Cab wrote: | | Quote: | | Also while I don't agree on the "Woops, Alphatia's down, let's join Thyatis" mentality, many people would rush to the Thyatian Empire and many fiefs would claim allegiance. After all, Thyatis is the surviving superpower. I don't think it would take a generation for Thyatis to reclaim the lost territories. Perhaps a year or so. |
A year is a very short time in peoples hearts and minds; its even further when it takes weeks or months to sort out an armada of vessels to go and assault an island. And its longer again when you've got kings like Haldebaran down in the Alatian islands; an intensely clever individual like him, with a dozen decent mages, could stall the landing of any fleet for months, even years. They could make any Thyatian advance very hard. Real history has shown that island nations can hold out against apparently unsurmountable opposition, and they can emerge prosperous. |
As a Greek I can tell you that yes, that's true. However, look at my post again.  I was talking about peacefully joining the remaining Superpower. About the Alatian islands we agree completely. I think Thyatis would not even think try to conquer them for a loooooong time. It has to deal with all the new land it got in Isle of Dawn.
Also to even peacefully claim Isle of dawn would take years. Thyatians don't just teleport their diplomats to the throne room in each and every petty kingdom there and in 25 minutes teleport back to the Emperor to tell him what they got.
| Quote: |
So IMO Thyatis would be like what it seems to be in the Almanac eventually, but it would take 6-7 years, not a single year, not 20 years. |
None of the historical precedents that I can think of support that, and none of the campaigns in the history of Mystara support that kind of expansion rate either. I suppose its possible, but the financial and human cost would be unsupportable.[/quote]
I still support my claim after (hopefully) clarifying what I mean:
- Much of the Isle of dawn would eventually peacefully join Thyatis. That would take years since negotiations with people so far take time.
- Thyatis would quickly reclaim the protectorates that rebelled against it in the war with Alphatia. That would take about a year since in many cases, the Thyatians would have to just show up and say "You know, we are here and the Alphatians aren't here to protect you. Are you sure you want to split off the Emprire?" That would take about a year.
- Thyatis would conquer some of the independants of Isle of Dawn except the Egypt thing with the mummies. Perhaps a couple more states would remain allied with Tothia and be independent. That would also take years of skirmishes with a couple of large battles or sieges.
- Thyatis wouldn't consider attacking far far away lands like Alatian islands still loyal to their sunken nation. Also while you seem to think Thyatian goverment is evil, Thincol is a gladiator with enough fighter-kind honor to not attack a wounded nation. While Thyatians are quite opportunists and would attack a small kingdom or a nation when it has bad times, they wouldn't attack a dead nation like the remains of Alphatia, it is beneath them. They know Alphatia lost the war... for good.
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Cab
Rules over Alphatia!
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 125
Location: Cambridge
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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| alhoon wrote: | What? ! ? Glantri destroyed the City built by Magic? That's next to impossible! Sundsvaal was that city? I had dreams about that city when I was a kid! It was inpsiring! Why would Glantri do that? What did the Gods did to prevent it?
My main reason for wanting Alphatia back is not to oppose Thyatis but rather to have that city back! |
Whether Rad meant to destroy Sundsvaal is doubtful, but its clear that he would do anything to defend the Radiance.
The Gods couldn't really prevent it, it happened in a heartbeat, and it was a God (or Immortal) that did it. That really precipitated the end of the Great War, when the surviving Great Council members teleported to Glantri and started fireballing the hell out of everything. The other direct result is that because Rad had finally broken one of the fundamental rules (direct Immortal action in a war) Ixion (ruling heirarch of energy, technically Rads boss, and the guy who was leading immortals on the other side of the war) turned up to beat the crap out of Rad.
If you've run the campaign properly, thats when the PCs also turn up on the scene, fresh with information on how to correctly 'fix' the radiance (a.k.a the main reactor from FSS Beagle) and alter it so that it no longer drains magic away from Mystara, thus making both sides happy (Rad can still use it and study it, Ixion doesn't see the sphere of energy lose out, Illsundal doesn't see his elves slowly die out, Alphatias people remain the great wizards and don't lose their power). What is meant to happen is that the PCs go into the radiance, tell Rad what they're doing, and repair/reset it while these two powerful immortals slug it out outside (Ixion turns up and is in no mood to talk). The end result I won't trouble you with (too convoluted!) but I will relate that in my campaign, with two very powerful immortals about to try to murder each other, the party cleric (cleric of Kagyar) stepped right in between them and yelled "Excuse me! Excuse me! Don't you think we're all being a little childish here?".
In theory, if the radiance is reset in time then Alphatia is saved. Isn't really meant to be what you do with the campaign, but I wasn't going to have the PCs succeed and then still sink the place. |
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Cab
Rules over Alphatia!
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 125
Location: Cambridge
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 1:12 pm Post subject: |
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| alhoon wrote: |
Hey, You are a bit preoccupied here I think. Alphatia's flying navy wasn't that powerful. While it is a power to be considered it is not the complete solution. After all, Alphatia's real force is its mages and it doesn't need too much army. |
The destruction of much of Alphatias fleet is a plot device; its even stated somewhere in WotI that when the fleet is burned, that sparks the longer war of attrition because the Empire can no longer go 'over the top'. That much is canon Mystara, not my own interpretation at all. Without that loss Alphatia wouldn't even start a ground war.
And as for the power of the Alphatias navy, see notes on heavy infantry, light infantry and imperial boltmen in Voyage of the Princess Ark (don't know if the notes made it into CofM). And further, look up how terrifying Alphatian men of war are - the heavy flying battleships would quite literally terrify enemy nations into surrender.
[ | Quote: | As a Greek I can tell you that yes, that's true. However, look at my post again. I was talking about peacefully joining the remaining Superpower. About the Alatian islands we agree completely. I think Thyatis would not even think try to conquer them for a loooooong time. It has to deal with all the new land it got in Isle of Dawn.
Also to even peacefully claim Isle of dawn would take years. Thyatians don't just teleport their diplomats to the throne room in each and every petty kingdom there and in 25 minutes teleport back to the Emperor to tell him what they got. |
I see the Alatians joining the Thyatian empire happening decades in the future; they'd jocky for the best deal, and their entry (and ultimately entry even of Bellisaria and Nortwold, perhaps even Minrothad) would radically change the Empire.
| Quote: |
I still support my claim after (hopefully) clarifying what I mean:
- Much of the Isle of dawn would eventually peacefully join Thyatis. That would take years since negotiations with people so far take time. |
Logically yes, I think that follows.
| Quote: |
- Thyatis would quickly reclaim the protectorates that rebelled against it in the war with Alphatia. That would take about a year since in many cases, the Thyatians would have to just show up and say "You know, we are here and the Alphatians aren't here to protect you. Are you sure you want to split off the Emprire?" That would take about a year. |
There I disagree. I think that both Ochalea and the Pearl Islands are very defensible, and I think that they may quite value their independence, especially if they can ally with the Alatians, even Thothia or Bellisaria. Suppose Ochalea were to resist Thyatis for a while, in the hope of entering the Empire again as an equal rather than a colony?
| Quote: | | - Thyatis would conquer some of the independants of Isle of Dawn except the Egypt thing with the mummies. Perhaps a couple more states would remain allied with Tothia and be independent. That would also take years of skirmishes with a couple of large battles or sieges. |
I think that once Thothia had bloodied Thyatian noses, then Thyatis would be wise to leave Thothia well alone. Even Alphatia never conquered Thothia (they turned up, saw that the Thothians were civilised, offered alliance and said that they'd deal with the rest of the world on behalf of Thothia, and Thothia decided that yes, they quite liked Alphatians and preferred them as a buffer against uncivilised peoples), and Thyatian generals would soon realise the folly of invasion.
| Quote: | | - Thyatis wouldn't consider attacking far far away lands like Alatian islands still loyal to their sunken nation. Also while you seem to think Thyatian goverment is evil, Thincol is a gladiator with enough fighter-kind honor to not attack a wounded nation. |
Heck no! Thyatis isn't evil, the Thyatian governmentis gloriously corrupt, but it isn't evil. In truth, none of the main governments of the Known World are evil, they just all have different outlooks.
| Quote: | | While Thyatians are quite opportunists and would attack a small kingdom or a nation when it has bad times, they wouldn't attack a dead nation like the remains of Alphatia, it is beneath them. They know Alphatia lost the war... for good. |
The almanacs portray Thyatis as intentionally mortgaging its future for rapid expansion; I think that it makes sense that they would desire to do this, its just not logistically feasible. All I disagree with the official version on is timescale; I think it would take years to retake the Isle of Dawn, and that re-entry of other colonies into the Empire would necessitate a permanent change in how the Empire operates.
(fascinating and fun discussion by the way ) |
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alhoon
Frequent Tentacle Issues
Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 96
Location: Chania, Greece.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 05, 2007 10:49 pm Post subject: |
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Important Clarification: I have: Rules Cyclopedia, Poor wizard's Almanac II, Dawn of Emperors Gaz.
So I can't really appreciate the battle-readiness of the Alphatian fleet in something that I have never heard of, much less own.
However, from the Almanac the Alphatian flying navy seems very good, but nothing too awe-inspiring.
And the question remains: Why would Thyatis consider to attack well defended independants halfway around the world, still loyal to Alphatia (that is Alatian isles). Yeah, Thyatis may decide to get a couple of these flying ships, but they could buy them instead of starting a war with something so far away.
I would really like to know why you think these flying ships were so important as I don't think that the benefit from having them would outweight the heavy losses and long war that Thyatis would get into in order to get Alatian isles.
As far as I have seen in the Almanac they are just that: Ships that fly rather quickly with 3rd-5th level crewmembers.
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Cab
Rules over Alphatia!
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 125
Location: Cambridge
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| Posted: Mon Apr 09, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject: |
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| alhoon wrote: | Important Clarification: I have: Rules Cyclopedia, Poor wizard's Almanac II, Dawn of Emperors Gaz.
So I can't really appreciate the battle-readiness of the Alphatian fleet in something that I have never heard of, much less own.
However, from the Almanac the Alphatian flying navy seems very good, but nothing too awe-inspiring.
And the question remains: Why would Thyatis consider to attack well defended independants halfway around the world, still loyal to Alphatia (that is Alatian isles). Yeah, Thyatis may decide to get a couple of these flying ships, but they could buy them instead of starting a war with something so far away.
I would really like to know why you think these flying ships were so important as I don't think that the benefit from having them would outweight the heavy losses and long war that Thyatis would get into in order to get Alatian isles.
As far as I have seen in the Almanac they are just that: Ships that fly rather quickly with 3rd-5th level crewmembers. |
They're rather more than that. They're frequently armed with magical artillery, they're MUCH faster than ocean vessels, and they're armed with crew such as boltmen (carry instantly rechargable wands of lightning bolts), dispel wardens, etc. Scary things. With their flying fleet intact, Alphatia could have ignored Thyatis in its war to defeat Glantril while the Knights of the Air would have been problematic, the only real rival they would have for air supremacy would have been the Heldannic knights.
Early in the great war, the bulk of that fleet is destroyed. Its an immortal inspired event, and a plot tool to level the playing field.
As for buying them... The cost would be unsupportable. An Alphatian Man of War costs millions to construct. |
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alhoon
Frequent Tentacle Issues
Joined: 10 Mar 2007
Posts: 96
Location: Chania, Greece.
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 4:50 am Post subject: |
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Thanks. Anyway... in your campaign what happened? Alphatia destroyed everything in their way to Glantri, leaving the Known worlds a ruin and defeating its only major antagonist? Or they just hardened the life for Thyatians, while losing much power themselves leading to a very unstable situation, that both empires would need a generation in order to recover and start bickering over the Isle of Dawn again?
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Cab
Rules over Alphatia!
Joined: 07 Mar 2007
Posts: 125
Location: Cambridge
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2007 10:24 am Post subject: |
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| alhoon wrote: | | Thanks. Anyway... in your campaign what happened? Alphatia destroyed everything in their way to Glantri, leaving the Known worlds a ruin and defeating its only major antagonist? Or they just hardened the life for Thyatians, while losing much power themselves leading to a very unstable situation, that both empires would need a generation in order to recover and start bickering over the Isle of Dawn again? |
Alphatia won. Sort of. The war dragged on sporadically for years afterwards though. Most of the first part of this is straight out of the book with only a few tweaks, what happened after the war is how things continued in my campaign.
Losing the greater part of their offensive fleet in the Great Fire of Aasla, the empire had little choice but to prepare for a long and bloody war. Slowly, slowly, they moved towards taking Thyatian colonies on in the Isle of Dawn. Eventually, after years of fighting, they had taken the whole Island; Ochalea and the Pearl Islands took their opportunity to declare independence, leaving Thyatis exposed; the great and proud Thyatian empire had no choice but to seek terms for a surrender in which they could salvage some pride, and Alphatia, having no real desire to destroy Thyatis, offered those terms.
Thyatis agreed to respect the independence of their former colonies on the North of the Isle of Dawn, and in the Southern seas; that set up 'buffer nations' between the two Empires, which Empress Eriadna sought for stability. Alphatian armed forces would be given free passage through mainland Thyatis, in return for which Thyatis would remain an Empire; they could expand freely to the West and South, as long as they relinquished any claims on independent nations and Alphatian interests to the North and East.
Alphatian troops (finally, after years of hard and bloody fighting, rganised into well armed, well equipped military units) started disembarking in Thyatis, preparing for the overland march to Glantri. Alphatian Beluga class high altitude airships embarked on bombing the City of Glantri. Emissaries from Alphatia arrived in Darokin and the new Shadow Elf territories (formerly Alfheim) to offer no-aggression pacts, i.e. allow our forces to pass, and we will respect your territory. Nothing now stood in the way.
The immortal Rad (also known as Etienne D'Ambreville) now had no option but to activate the Radiance to use the 'doomsday weapon' he had constructed. Aiming squarely at Sundsvaal, he drained magic out of the City Built by Magic, and out of the Prime Plane itself. This created the famous 'week of dread', in which all mortal magic on Mystara stopped working (again, remember, this is more or less staight out of the book; Alphatia finally defeating Thyatis, terms for peace, the Week of Dread, and the onslought yet to come, mostly all by the book).
Alphatia was in disarray. Islands flying in the sky falling sedately to earth, low altitude flying vessels surviving by slowly landing but high altitude vessels not having time to land, monsters from magical zoos released and running rampage... and their entire capital city wiped off the map. Tens of thousands died, including the Empress (magically old, but killed by the tempest) and a proportion of the Grand Council who didn't get out in time. With no council sitting to choose a new emperor, Zandor (Eriadnas son) claimed the throne.
Alphatian forces on the Isle of Dawn couldn't hold on to their conquests during this week, ending up barriacading themselves in to barracks; in Thyatis, widespread rioting erupted leaving Alphatian forces there in almost as much disarray as they were at home.
When magic came 'back on', Alphatia was filled with understandable outrage; Zandor required of every mage capable that they now accompany him to Glantri; within three days, well over a thousand arch mages now teleported, flew into the air and started bombarding the city.
Now, at this point things diverge from the published adventure rather more.
The PCs in WotI are involved in a sub-plot, to investigate the source of the 'radiance' and to alter it, to prevent it from leaching magic away from the prime plane. While on one side of the great war you have immortals like Rad and Rafiel, along wiht Vanya and their allies, and on the other (Alphatian) side you've got Ixion, Valerias, Alphatia etc., right in the middle there is the curious immortal Benekander. The PCs, with benekander as their ally, eventually made it into the great chamber of the Radiance in time to see the destruction of Sundsvaal; after explaining to Rad that they had finally worked out how to change the settings on the Radiance (the old warp engine on the Beagle, on which Benekander had been chief engineer), they entered the Radiance and started working on it. With a clock ticking towards the destruction of Alphatia, with Rad having finally broken the immortal laws sufficient to justify direct action Ixion turned up to finally sort things out man to man; and with a thousand or more of the most powerful mages on Mystara high over the city of Glantri, the fate of the whole world lay in the hands of the PCs.
I won't go further into the plots and sub-plots, but again, most of this is by the book. But in my campaign, the PCs managed to re-set the radiance and save Alphatia (I just don't approve of adventures which end in failure no matter what the PCs do). But the Radiance was still activated, blacking the sky out in Glantri and turning the Alphatians magic upon themselves; the mages were forced to flee, but the Radiance was now repaired, no longer draining magic away from the prime. For the rest of the nuances here, get WotI.
Now, Alphatia wasn't exactly in ruins, but it wasn't exactly intact either. After this massive campaign, the Mylertendal factions soon encouraged Alphatia to be more pacifistic again; they retreated into their shells. Thyatis reclaimed the Dawn territories, but did not immediately reclaim Ochalea or the Pearl Islands. The Heldannic Knights (who had been having a whale of a time during the great war) were still active, and Glantri, thoguh battered, had survived. Alphatia hadn't really won anything by the war, but the primary objective of neutralising the negative effects radiance had been achieved. Thyatis had lost, but had survived and would be strong again. The Shadow Elves had defeated the followers of Illsundal, who now retreated to Wendar and Ataughin to plot their revenge... and all the time the Master looked on from Hule, biding his time, biding his time.
The next major plot to unfurl was in Alphatia, but more of that in another post. |
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