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Finarvyn

Eras of Blackmoor publication

I'm trying to organize Blackmoor into various eras, since "Blackmoor" has been inserted into so many campaign worlds. Here's a start...

I. Twin Cities Blackmoor (? - 1976)
This would be Chainmail and pre-OD&D days from the Midwest Military Simulation Association (Minneapolis-St. Paul) and St. Thomas College, probably including most of the material in the FFC as well as the original version of the Valley of the Ancients. Probably this ectends as far as OD&D Supplement II.

II. Judges Guild Blackmoor (1976 - 1980)
This would be the FFC stuck onto the Wilderlands campaign along with the Wilderlands version of the Valley of the Ancients.

III. World of Greyhawk Blackmoor (1980-1985)
The WoG folio and boxed set have BM placed therein, although no real development occurs as part of the Greyhawk campaign.

IV. TSRBlackmoor(1986-87)
This would be the era where TSR did the DA 1-4 series of modules. Dave had some input in the first couple, minimal (if any) input in the last couple. A DA5 module was planned but never created. The "Known World" of Mystara had BM placed therein (apparently by folks other than Dave Arneson) to attempt to tie the two worlds together. The GAZ modules began in 1987.

The two issues of Different Worlds magazine were done about the same time as era IV but not specific to any version of Blackmoor and with a combination of rules.

V. BlackMoor reimagined (2004-present)
This represents the 3E BM campaign currently being published by Zeitgeist Games, along with the MMRPG and other current products.

Anything I've left out, or does anyone see things differently?

3-30-07 EDIT: Made note of the original Valley of the Ancients (thanks, Svenny) as well as the fact that the DW magazine modules could fit any Blackmoor version (Havard).
3-31-07 EDIT: Re-worked the "TSR Blackmoor era" entry. (Rafael)
Rafael

I would argue about III - was BM really treated in Greyhawk, apart from some minor references and the rough details given about the locations? - I don't recall any specific gaming reference... :smt001
Plaag

Only think the city has been mentioned, but no product support for the Greyhawk Blackmoor.
I've been thinking on this and I'd say regarding II: The FFC and Blackmoor existed more or less before Judges Guild's Wilderlands. And after Judges Guild printed the FFC, they then created the Barbarian Altanis/Glow Worm Steppes Campaign Map to help connect the Balckmoor region to the Wilderlands (course still kidy corner to it in case either area was to expand). There maybe something about this in one of the early Judges Guild magazines.

ShaneG.
Havard

Plaag wrote:
Only think the city has been mentioned, but no product support for the Greyhawk Blackmoor.
I've been thinking on this and I'd say regarding II: The FFC and Blackmoor existed more or less before Judges Guild's Wilderlands. And after Judges Guild printed the FFC, they then created the Barbarian Altanis/Glow Worm Steppes Campaign Map to help connect the Balckmoor region to the Wilderlands (course still kidy corner to it in case either area was to expand). There maybe something about this in one of the early Judges Guild magazines.

ShaneG.


Interesting. The version I heard Arneson added the Valley of the Ancients to make Blackmoor fit with the already existing JG map. Blackmoor predates the Wilderlands, but did not originally have the Valley of the Ancients. Possibly that region had not yet been mapped.

When TSR made the DA series, the expanded the map further to the south and made it seem like the Valley did not extend in a way that would fit with the Wilderlands.

But I could be wrong?

Håvard
Havard

Re: Eras of Blackmoor publication

Finarvyn wrote:

IV. Mystara Blackmoor(1986-87)
This would be the era where TSR did the DA 1-4 series of modules. The "Known World" has BM placed therein, and the GAZ modules began in 1987. The two issues of Different Worlds magazine were done about the same time, so I would guess that this BM would fit Mystara as well.


In terms of publication time, the Different Worlds articles should probably fit in this category, though there is no mention of "The Known World" and the modules should be compatible with ant era of Blackmoor settingwise. The rules also are a bit fuzzy, using terminlogy from both Classic and Advanced D&D.

Havard
Plaag

Havard wrote:
Plaag wrote:
Only think the city has been mentioned, but no product support for the Greyhawk Blackmoor.
I've been thinking on this and I'd say regarding II: The FFC and Blackmoor existed more or less before Judges Guild's Wilderlands. And after Judges Guild printed the FFC, they then created the Barbarian Altanis/Glow Worm Steppes Campaign Map to help connect the Balckmoor region to the Wilderlands (course still kidy corner to it in case either area was to expand). There maybe something about this in one of the early Judges Guild magazines.

ShaneG.


Interesting. The version I heard Arneson added the Valley of the Ancients to make Blackmoor fit with the already existing JG map. Blackmoor predates the Wilderlands, but did not originally have the Valley of the Ancients. Possibly that region had not yet been mapped.

When TSR made the DA series, the expanded the map further to the south and made it seem like the Valley did not extend in a way that would fit with the Wilderlands.

But I could be wrong?

Håvard


Well I know Bledsaw drew the Wilderlands outline by copying a portion of Pangaea from a book at the time, not sure how much detail he had filled in (with regards to the areas as they later became known) by the time FFC came to be printed through Judges Guild. Though I now see in Journal N that Dave allowed Judges Guild to 'provide the graphic touch to the project' (could run the gambit of redrawing maps or just the art found within).

You could be right!

ShaneG.
gsvenson

My recollection is that we played out the original Valley of the Ancients adventure sometime during the 1973-74 school year or it might have been the following summer as we had moved our gaming from Dave's basement to St. Thomas College by that time and that was where we were when we played that adventure out. I moved away to Mankato in the Fall of '74, so it should have been before that.

My recollection of the geography is a bit fuzzy. What I remember is that the Valley of the Ancients was southwest of Blackmoor, which basically fits where it is in the current maps; but I don't remember much of the details of the other geography in that direction. The geography south of Blackmoor has been radically altered from the original setting to keep it compatable with the varous settings Blackmoor has been placed in since then.
Finarvyn

I edited my original post to include some of the comments so far. Hopefully I got it right.... :smt003
Plaag

gsvenson wrote:
My recollection is that we played out the original Valley of the Ancients adventure sometime during the 1973-74 school year or it might have been the following summer as we had moved our gaming from Dave's basement to St. Thomas College by that time and that was where we were when we played that adventure out. I moved away to Mankato in the Fall of '74, so it should have been before that.

My recollection of the geography is a bit fuzzy. What I remember is that the Valley of the Ancients was southwest of Blackmoor, which basically fits where it is in the current maps; but I don't remember much of the details of the other geography in that direction. The geography south of Blackmoor has been radically altered from the original setting to keep it compatable with the varous settings Blackmoor has been placed in since then.


Mind if I use this for my site: http://www.acaeum.com/jg/ as it helps to explain how the Wilderlands developed and the order upon which the maps were released throughout the years.

ShaneG.
Rafael

Re: Eras of Blackmoor publication

Finarvyn wrote:

The two issues of Different Worlds magazine were done about the same time as era IV but not specific to any version of Blackmoor and with a combination of rules.


I would not include the DW adventures into the Mystara canon; the idea to merge BM with Mystara did not come from Arneson, but from David J Ritchie, as far as I understand, and I am not sure if Mr Arneson even approved that, with all the changes Ritchie apparently applied without asking him. Maybe better call it TSR Blackmoor, or something alike. :smt001

(No idea at all why the modules were not written for Greyhawk, but for Mystara, btw.)
Finarvyn

Re: Eras of Blackmoor publication

Rafael wrote:
No idea at all why the modules were not written for Greyhawk, but for Mystara, btw.

I bet it had to do with the BD&D/AD&D legal split where Gary's AD&D was determined to be sufficiently different from BD&D so as to be a seperate game system. Greyhawk was AD&D, so Dave's Blackmoor was set to be BD&D and Mystara was the offiical world for BD&D at the time.

I did make some edits to my original list, Rafael. Hope it reflects what you meant in your post.
Rafael

Thank you for the info and for applying the changes! I think the list is quite useful, since BM's publication history deserves a closer look, with all its twists and turns.

I really wondered about this for quite a while - though IIRC, DA1 was published in the famous year 1986, when, as Frank Mentzer would put it, the POG took over TSR. Maybe the BM switch to Mystara was a first step to minimize Greyhawk's key position in TSR's marketing... :smt001
Finarvyn

For me, the list is a way of getting my brain organized regarding Blackmoor. I have a box of BM stuff and am maot interested in early campaign material, but I don't want to discard anything newer which could be considered "canon" Blackmoor.

To give an example, some of the famous characters of Blackmoor are given a mention but no stats in the FFC book, but in DA1 there might be stats. So, I might use later stats for those characters but disregard new characters never mentioned in the FFC.

Putting this stuff into piles (or eras) helps me think though the development of the campaign -- what was created, when it was done, and by whom.
Rafael

You might want to to check the documents that are presented here:

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/zimriel/Blackmoor/

David Ross' BM Gaz could be pretty much what you're looking for. :smt001
gsvenson

In the "Twincities Era" you refer to the game as being "Chainmail and pre-OD&D". I am probably out of touch with current thinking on these things, but we were using much of what was in those three little books long before they were published.

We had a player (Bill Heaton) advance a level in the very first adventure. There were only three levels at the time: flunky, hero and super hero. We were all flunkies at the start. He became a hero when he mastered the magic sword we found during the adventure. I don't remember when the level advancement became one level per new hit dice and we were never really sure how far along we were in getting to the next level, Dave kept track of our experince and let us know when we moved up.

Because you died when you were hit in Chainmail, we were using damage dice, hit dice and armor classes within about a month of our starting to play Blackmoor (winter of 1970-71). Dave Arneson told me he based the armor class system on an American Civil War Ironclad game, although I can not tell you what game it was at this point, though.

I don't remember exactly when we starting rolling for our character attributes (str, dex, con, int, wis & appearance rather than chrisma, as I recall), but it was before the summer of 1972, because I remember using them at that time. We were only using two d6 so the range was only 2-12, however. We didn't have our own character sheets. Instead, Dave kept an index card on each of us with our stats, experience and possessions. We had the card during the gaming session, but we returned it at the end of the game.

I think that the the only time we used pure Chainmail after the first few weeks was when we were doing mass battles. Even then we adjusted it to use the damage dice and hit points for each PC, so it was not really pure Chainmail anymore.

It seems to me that the transition from our home game with Dave's rules to play testing the OD&D rules was a pretty minor transition. Hardly noticable...
robertthebald

gsvenson wrote:
My recollection is that we played out the original Valley of the Ancients adventure sometime during the 1973-74 school year or it might have been the following summer as we had moved our gaming from Dave's basement to St. Thomas College by that time and that was where we were when we played that adventure out. I moved away to Mankato in the Fall of '74, so it should have been before that.

My recollection of the geography is a bit fuzzy. What I remember is that the Valley of the Ancients was southwest of Blackmoor, which basically fits where it is in the current maps; but I don't remember much of the details of the other geography in that direction. The geography south of Blackmoor has been radically altered from the original setting to keep it compatable with the varous settings Blackmoor has been placed in since then.


This is about what I remember. My character Robert the Bald started in Blackmoor and ended up in the area called The Dragon hills on the present maps. At the time there were no Dragon Hills and the Valley of the Ancients seemed to be further away. It was just a wilderness that we had to explore. Perhaps I was just relocated closer when the present maps were made.
gsvenson

robertthebald wrote:
This is about what I remember. My character Robert the Bald started in Blackmoor and ended up in the area called The Dragon hills on the present maps. At the time there were no Dragon Hills and the Valley of the Ancients seemed to be further away. It was just a wilderness that we had to explore. Perhaps I was just relocated closer when the present maps were made.
Thanks for the support! It is hard to be sure of ourselves when we are trying to remember details from 30 to 35 years ago.

It is nice to hear from you again! Has it been 25 years? Or perhaps longer?
Finarvyn

Rafael wrote:
You might want to to check the documents that are presented here:

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/zimriel/Blackmoor/

David Ross' BM Gaz could be pretty much what you're looking for. :smt001

I've seen this but was never quite sure which things were canon Arneson and which were added later on. I see that David Ross addresses this issue on his webpage, but in the docs it's hard to be so certain.

To clarify, some of the files have mentions of Judges Guild locations (such as the City-State of the Invincible Overlord), so it's hard to know which era the material comes from.
robertthebald

gsvenson wrote:
robertthebald wrote:
This is about what I remember. My character Robert the Bald started in Blackmoor and ended up in the area called The Dragon hills on the present maps. At the time there were no Dragon Hills and the Valley of the Ancients seemed to be further away. It was just a wilderness that we had to explore. Perhaps I was just relocated closer when the present maps were made.
Thanks for the support! It is hard to be sure of ourselves when we are trying to remember details from 30 to 35 years ago.

It is nice to hear from you again! Has it been 25 years? Or perhaps longer?


Hi Greg,
It has been at least that long. I was happy to see you posting to these forums. I have been trying to remember these details from so long ago myself.
Havard

robertthebald wrote:
Hi Greg,
It has been at least that long. I was happy to see you posting to these forums. I have been trying to remember these details from so long ago myself.


Not to jump into your discussion guys, but we would love to hear more about whatever memories you guys may have of those days. Greg has already been kind enough to share some things with us on various forums. Bob, I hope this isn't the last we hear from you either!

Havard
Ermanaric

I would just like to also jump in and agree with Havard, I would like to hear more as well.
Rafael

Me, too, of course!

As to David Ross' work, that is true, but, at least in comparison with new books, the book covers much more aspects of the setting. - The ZGG hardcover was excellent, IMO, but it was really more like a player's guide to a setting than like a DM's guide. Even if Ross' work is not entirely canon, it is very useful, for me at least, to add detail to my campaigns, and I greatly recommend it. - I wonder if Dustin and the other people at ZGG ever considered to ask him if he would write for the line...
robertthebald

Havard wrote:
robertthebald wrote:
Hi Greg,
It has been at least that long. I was happy to see you posting to these forums. I have been trying to remember these details from so long ago myself.


Not to jump into your discussion guys, but we would love to hear more about whatever memories you guys may have of those days. Greg has already been kind enough to share some things with us on various forums. Bob, I hope this isn't the last we hear from you either!

Havard


Havard,
I will see what I can do. It was a very long time ago, and I have been trying to remember it all. I will contact some of the other guys that still live in the area and see if they want to participate also. I can answer some questions you have now to the best of my ability. Nothing against this forum, but I may prefer to post on David's forum at the MMPRG. After all, we are talking about Blackmoor, and it would not exist without David. I will see what I can do about starting a thread there.
Bob
Havard

robertthebald wrote:
Havard,
I will see what I can do. It was a very long time ago, and I have been trying to remember it all. I will contact some of the other guys that still live in the area and see if they want to participate also. I can answer some questions you have now to the best of my ability. Nothing against this forum, but I may prefer to post on David's forum at the MMPRG. After all, we are talking about Blackmoor, and it would not exist without David. I will see what I can do about starting a thread there.
Bob


Bob, that sounds fantastic! I know its been a while, but any details you guys can come up with will be of interest. Good idea about posting it over at the ZGG forum. That will probably make it accessible to more people as well.

Havard
Rafael

Hello Bob,

Not to speak agains the ZGG site - I post there as Desdichado -, but the problem with it is that it is currently partially defunct (frequent errors, posts disappear, no email notifications, and so on...).

Posting messages there, or even installing a Q&A thread might be pretty much in vain, because few people still visit there (reportedly, even the registration for new users is broken).

I am as eager to read about your experiences as anyone else here, but I fear that they might get pretty much lost at the MMORPG page. While this place here is maybe not the best place either (small community, almost no public knowledge about this place), you might want to check other, more renowned places like Knights & Knaves Alehouse or The Dragonsfoot Community, where the audience is bigger and posting your messages is more comfortable. (Of course, I'd be very happy if you decided to post your stories here. )

- Just my two cents, of course.

Yours,

Rafael
Finarvyn

I have also had frustration with DA's MMRPG boards. Sometimes I need to keep posting the same thing 4-5 times before it appears and I keep getting strange error messages along the way.
robertthebald

I am new to forums in general, let alone the forums that deal with D&D and Fantasy Gaming. I was unaware that there were problems with the MMRPG forum. I would still like to use that forum for the reason I gave earlier, and have already contacted Dustin about setting it up. He has replied that Greg can help set it up. I will try it and see how it goes. If there are too many problems, I can use one of the other forums. I am not even sure about the format to use. Respond to questions? Reminisce in general? Tell stories? All of the above? Suggestions would be welcome.
Havard

robertthebald wrote:
I am new to forums in general, let alone the forums that deal with D&D and Fantasy Gaming. I was unaware that there were problems with the MMRPG forum. I would still like to use that forum for the reason I gave earlier, and have already contacted Dustin about setting it up. He has replied that Greg can help set it up. I will try it and see how it goes. If there are too many problems, I can use one of the other forums. I am not even sure about the format to use. Respond to questions? Reminisce in general? Tell stories? All of the above? Suggestions would be welcome.


I am still hoping the MMRPG forum will return to its former state. It hasn't quite been itself since it was moved to the new site and it doesn't look like Dustin & Co have had the time to fix it properly. Oh well. It is the only real Blackmoor forum, so I think your decision is a good one. Ofcourse, you could post some tidbits here as well if you like. I know it would make Raf happy

I suggest starting a thread by posting a little anectdote or whatever form you feel comfortable with. Then let people jump at you with questions. I know I will!

BTW, if Dustin could get the forum back in proper working order, a sort of reminiscence session with you and Greg (and maybe even Dave?) would be a great way to draw people back to the forum. We could spread the news to the other forums and make them know where to find out about it

Just a thought.

Havard,
General Blackmoor enthusiast and fansite entrepreneur.
Rafael

Greg wrote some very cool "recaps" (adventure retellings) and posted them at his website; maybe this is the most comfortable way to go.

Personal note here: I retold the story of the recap to some 10-year-olds at my youth group, and they were so fascinated that they now frequently greet me shouting: "Blackmoor, Blackmoor!"

Of course, I'd enjoy to hear some nice tales about Blackmoor, so please don't hold anything back that you want to share!
Plaag

Yeah, just point me to wherever this shall be discussed as I'm interested in reading about the days of ol' Blackmoor.

ShaneG.
gsvenson

Bob and I grew up in Excelsior, Minnesota and played games together before we ever met Dave Arneson and got involved in Blackmoor. We have been e-mailing to get back in touch with each other and our lives, since we made contact here. The last time we were actually together was at my wedding in 1976.

I think that we are going to move our discussion about the original Blackmoor campaign to the Zeigeist Games MMRPG website as that seems to be the most appropriate place for the discussion, even if the web site has bugs...
Ermanaric

Well, looks like I have good reason to register there now!
Rafael

Yeah, leave me all alone here! My Jedi powers are much bigger than yours anyway...

This site here of course is not a competence to the original BM board - more like a small little brother...
Havard

Rafael wrote:
This site here of course is not a competence to the original BM board - more like a small little brother...


And a very nice brother. Hmmm...how about a cute sister?

Ofcourse we will still hang out here, won't we guys?

Havard
gsvenson

Of course!
Rafael

Thank you! I'll do my best to create enough trouble to make this site worth visiting!
Apercu

Been looking over at that thread on the other forum. I love reading about the history and the early days of Blackmoor. From what I've read and heard over the years, I get the feeling Dave doesn't get nearly the credit he desrves for his roll in getting the ball rolling. That's not to start anything, but just an observation. I read at one time that Dave had put together a documentary about the early days of the RPG called Dragon's In The Basement. Sounds like something that would be a must buy if it were ever released.
gsvenson

Apercu wrote:
Been looking over at that thread on the other forum. I love reading about the history and the early days of Blackmoor. From what I've read and heard over the years, I get the feeling Dave doesn't get nearly the credit he desrves for his roll in getting the ball rolling. That's not to start anything, but just an observation.

I have strong opinions on this myself, but I don't want to start a flame war with anyone from the Gygax/TSR camp. Dave isn't allowed to talk about it as a result of the settlements from the various lawsuits with TSR over the last 30 years.

Apercu wrote:
I read at one time that Dave had put together a documentary about the early days of the RPG called Dragon's In The Basement. Sounds like something that would be a must buy if it were ever released.

Yes, Dave put a lot of time and money into preparing Dragons in the Basement. He was hoping to get it run on PBS, Discovery or the Sci-Fi channel to cover the production costs. I will try to ask him what happened to it next time I see him.

I saw a pre-release version of it when I was visiting the Twin Cities sometime back in the mid 90's. He had interviews with most of the original players. He tried to arrange an interview with me for it but because I don't live in the Twin Cities, it never happened.
Glgnfz

gsvenson wrote:

Yes, Dave put a lot of time and money into preparing Dragons in the Basement. He was hoping to get it run on PBS, Discovery or the Sci-Fi channel to cover the production costs. I will try to ask him what happened to it next time I see him.



wow! i'd like to see THAT!!!
Apercu

gsvenson wrote:
Apercu wrote:
Been looking over at that thread on the other forum. I love reading about the history and the early days of Blackmoor. From what I've read and heard over the years, I get the feeling Dave doesn't get nearly the credit he desrves for his roll in getting the ball rolling. That's not to start anything, but just an observation.

I have strong opinions on this myself, but I don't want to start a flame war with anyone from the Gygax/TSR camp. Dave isn't allowed to talk about it as a result of the settlements from the various lawsuits with TSR over the last 30 years.

Apercu wrote:
I read at one time that Dave had put together a documentary about the early days of the RPG called Dragon's In The Basement. Sounds like something that would be a must buy if it were ever released.

Yes, Dave put a lot of time and money into preparing Dragons in the Basement. He was hoping to get it run on PBS, Discovery or the Sci-Fi channel to cover the production costs. I will try to ask him what happened to it next time I see him.

I saw a pre-release version of it when I was visiting the Twin Cities sometime back in the mid 90's. He had interviews with most of the original players. He tried to arrange an interview with me for it but because I don't live in the Twin Cities, it never happened.


I heard that there was a viewing of it at Gencon a couple years back. I'd love to see PBS air it. If this were to ever be available for purchase online or in store, I doubt I'd be the only person in line to buy a copy.
gsvenson

gsvenson wrote:
Apercu wrote:
I read at one time that Dave had put together a documentary about the early days of the RPG called Dragon's In The Basement. Sounds like something that would be a must buy if it were ever released.

Yes, Dave put a lot of time and money into preparing Dragons in the Basement. He was hoping to get it run on PBS, Discovery or the Sci-Fi channel to cover the production costs. I will try to ask him what happened to it next time I see him.

Dave Arneson and I are at Recon 07 (a mostly historical gaming con in Orlando) right now. I asked him about Dragons in the Basement at dinner last night. He said it is sitting in a box under a table in his living room and still needs some editing. He indicated that Zeitgeist Games may sell copies of it through their on-line store in the not too distant future.
Apercu

gsvenson wrote:
Dave Arneson and I are at Recon 07 (a mostly historical gaming con in Orlando) right now. I asked him about Dragons in the Basement at dinner last night. He said it is sitting in a box under a table in his living room and still needs some editing. He indicated that Zeitgeist Games may sell copies of it through their on-line store in the not too distant future.


Ah, this is excellent news. Guess I'll have to keep watching the website for any news of this. Definitely want a copy when it comes out.

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